Irving (not Irvine) - I don't agree with holocaust denial being a criminal offence but I think DI knew what he was doing when he committed the offence so it's hard to have much sympathy for him. He's also a crap historian.
Our Ken - Scum who work for tabloids deserve everything they get. If their feathers get ruffled too bad.
Israel - Does thinking the Holocaust was a bad thing make me anti-German?
There are many crap historians, I've worked with several, I don't think it's really an imprisonable offence.
Yes, I noticed the spelling mistake, but polls are uneditable.
I certainly don't consider everyone who works for the tabloid press to be scum, and Finkelstein isn't actually that bad, rubbish though the Standard is. I find the assertion they deserve everything they get somewhat disturbing. Ken was well out of order, and has since lied about what happened in order to make all his comments sound like an unfortunate faux pas made in ignorance of Finkelstein's Jewishness. Unfortunately for him the tape shows this was not the case.
Frankly I think Ken is a shit and unfit for public office. I just don't think this is the thing that should bring him down.
The point about Israel is more that while I regularly criticise the state of Israel, I do frequently find that people use it as a thin veil for anti-semitism.
The point about Israel is more that while I regularly criticise the state of Israel, I do frequently find that people use it as a thin veil for anti-semitism.
That one cuts both ways though. I agree that people use it as a veil for anti-semitism but I also think the pro-Israel lobby plays the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat.
I was arguing about this in some depth earlier, and appear to have accidentally written a military history of Israel in 870 words instead of the parliamentary communications guide for local government I was meant to be working on this evening.
10,000 people have died, roughly in the modern phase of the Middle East conflict. Most people would recognise that there are things to be said for both sides, though I personally almost always find the argument for Israel better supported.
Contrast this with the 50-100,000 people who have been wiped out with no justification by the Indonesian army in West Papua, in a barely denied campaign of outright ethnic cleansing.
Therefore, while I wish it were otherwise, I can't help but feel there must be some special factor involving attitudes towards Jewish statehood in play when google returns 113,000 hits for 'boycott Israel', and 575 for 'boycott indonesia'.
and will you forgive my belief that it would be a lot less secret if Indonesia were a Jewish state and the people of West Papua were Arab Muslims? I appreciate we're well into the realms of the hypothetical...
I agree this probably shouldn't be what brings Ken down, but have to admit I still screamed with pleasure when a colleague told me he'd been suspended, and only afterwards said 'oh, this is about the journalist row, isn't it?'
The Finkelstein business is soemthing I know nothing about.
Wouldn't have cared about Irvine much either, but it has come close on the heels on the Cartoon controversy and the difference in the stance has been noticed and commented upon. Can't imagine how that would be a good thing.
And anti-semitism is still a concept I'm trying to get my head around. I still haven't figured out what all can lead to the charge but I have finally noticed that it is a sensitive topic.
I miss-remembered the name, Finegold not Finkelstein.
Finegold is an Evening Standard journalist, the ES being, love it or loathe it, London's newspaper. It is part of the Associated Press group, which includes the Daily Mail, national house newspaper of the small minded, but is itself slightly differently positioned to cater for the audience (Joff once commented you could feel the screams of the Daily Mail stories being shoehorned into a metropolitan slant). Actually though the ES is perhaps more read by commuters than actual zones 1&2 londoners.
Ken is firmly of the loathe the ES brigade, and there has been a running war between it and him for years. (Not so long ago Ken and an ES journalist had an actual fight outside a private party resulting in the journalist going down a flight of steps).
Don't know how well you know Ken: once hard man of the London left, and leader of the old GLC (General London Council) that Thatcher killed off in the 80s, he was unpopular with new Labour. They didn't want him to run for their new post of Mayor, he did, as an independent and inevitably (because he is genuinely popular) won. Introduced things like the congestion charge. Now back inside the labour party, but of the vociferously anti-war party, and his relationship with the party is still dodgy.
At a public event celebrating the career of Chris Smith (gay labour politician) Finegold was present as an ES journalist and allegedly being somewhat intrusive questioning Ken outside on leaving. Ken accused him of behaving like a Nazi and a concentration guard camp. Finegold, as the name suggests, is Jewish, and took exception.
Ken carried on with his line despite Finegold's comment that as a Jew with relations who died at Auschwitz he was offended. Crucially, whereas Ken initially claimed he called him a concentration camp guard before knowing he was Jewish, a tape of the altercation reveals, as I understand it, that that accusation came after Finegold had said he was Jewish. It doesn't help that Ken has been.. more sympathetic than many would argue is appropriate? to Muslim clerics and organisations of dubious provenance.
Ken has now been suspended for a short term for impropriety by the Standards Board, a quango, which is part of my problem with the outcome.
You didn't provide an option for "get on quite well with Ken in person and approve of most of what he's done for London, but wish he would shut up about international issues on which he is at best wilfully ignorant". So I said he was a twat.
Yes, I admit I was a bit unfair, as well as poorly spelled, in my choices. I did actually vote for Ken, the first time. And am all in favour of (eg in particular) the congestion charge. I still can't like the man.
Irving chose to go back to Austria where he knew he'd be arrested. The guy is arrogant and stupid - but unfortunately those are not crimes.
Ken didn't break a law, and his suspension is undemocratic. He is a twat, though.
It is a shame people - across the spectrum - cannot separate criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. It means progress is even harder than it might otherwise be.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 06:21 pm (UTC)Our Ken - Scum who work for tabloids deserve everything they get. If their feathers get ruffled too bad.
Israel - Does thinking the Holocaust was a bad thing make me anti-German?
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 06:29 pm (UTC)Yes, I noticed the spelling mistake, but polls are uneditable.
I certainly don't consider everyone who works for the tabloid press to be scum, and Finkelstein isn't actually that bad, rubbish though the Standard is. I find the assertion they deserve everything they get somewhat disturbing. Ken was well out of order, and has since lied about what happened in order to make all his comments sound like an unfortunate faux pas made in ignorance of Finkelstein's Jewishness. Unfortunately for him the tape shows this was not the case.
Frankly I think Ken is a shit and unfit for public office. I just don't think this is the thing that should bring him down.
The point about Israel is more that while I regularly criticise the state of Israel, I do frequently find that people use it as a thin veil for anti-semitism.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 06:33 pm (UTC)That one cuts both ways though. I agree that people use it as a veil for anti-semitism but I also think the pro-Israel lobby plays the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 12:17 am (UTC)I was arguing about this in some depth earlier, and appear to have accidentally written a military history of Israel in 870 words instead of the parliamentary communications guide for local government I was meant to be working on this evening.
10,000 people have died, roughly in the modern phase of the Middle East conflict. Most people would recognise that there are things to be said for both sides, though I personally almost always find the argument for Israel better supported.
Contrast this with the 50-100,000 people who have been wiped out with no justification by the Indonesian army in West Papua, in a barely denied campaign of outright ethnic cleansing.
Therefore, while I wish it were otherwise, I can't help but feel there must be some special factor involving attitudes towards Jewish statehood in play when google returns 113,000 hits for 'boycott Israel', and 575 for 'boycott indonesia'.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 12:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 12:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 06:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 09:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 10:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-25 05:21 am (UTC)Wouldn't have cared about Irvine much either, but it has come close on the heels on the Cartoon controversy and the difference in the stance has been noticed and commented upon. Can't imagine how that would be a good thing.
And anti-semitism is still a concept I'm trying to get my head around. I still haven't figured out what all can lead to the charge but I have finally noticed that it is a sensitive topic.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 10:35 am (UTC)Finegold is an Evening Standard journalist, the ES being, love it or loathe it, London's newspaper. It is part of the Associated Press group, which includes the Daily Mail, national house newspaper of the small minded, but is itself slightly differently positioned to cater for the audience (Joff once commented you could feel the screams of the Daily Mail stories being shoehorned into a metropolitan slant). Actually though the ES is perhaps more read by commuters than actual zones 1&2 londoners.
Ken is firmly of the loathe the ES brigade, and there has been a running war between it and him for years. (Not so long ago Ken and an ES journalist had an actual fight outside a private party resulting in the journalist going down a flight of steps).
Don't know how well you know Ken: once hard man of the London left, and leader of the old GLC (General London Council) that Thatcher killed off in the 80s, he was unpopular with new Labour. They didn't want him to run for their new post of Mayor, he did, as an independent and inevitably (because he is genuinely popular) won. Introduced things like the congestion charge. Now back inside the labour party, but of the vociferously anti-war party, and his relationship with the party is still dodgy.
At a public event celebrating the career of Chris Smith (gay labour politician) Finegold was present as an ES journalist and allegedly being somewhat intrusive questioning Ken outside on leaving. Ken accused him of behaving like a Nazi and a concentration guard camp. Finegold, as the name suggests, is Jewish, and took exception.
Ken carried on with his line despite Finegold's comment that as a Jew with relations who died at Auschwitz he was offended. Crucially, whereas Ken initially claimed he called him a concentration camp guard before knowing he was Jewish, a tape of the altercation reveals, as I understand it, that that accusation came after Finegold had said he was Jewish. It doesn't help that Ken has been.. more sympathetic than many would argue is appropriate? to Muslim clerics and organisations of dubious provenance.
Ken has now been suspended for a short term for impropriety by the Standards Board, a quango, which is part of my problem with the outcome.
I think that's a reasonably fair summary.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 12:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 10:20 am (UTC)I did actually vote for Ken, the first time. And am all in favour of (eg in particular) the congestion charge. I still can't like the man.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 09:22 am (UTC)Ken didn't break a law, and his suspension is undemocratic. He is a twat, though.
It is a shame people - across the spectrum - cannot separate criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. It means progress is even harder than it might otherwise be.